donutsweeper | Creating Canon

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Creating Canon

(This was originally going to be a MUCH longer post but I've been poking at it for close to five months and decided to trim it up and just throw it together before it languished away before I ever wrote it up.)

I have this weird phobia about creating canon in my fics even if I know it's unlikely whatever I come up with will ever be Jossed (aka later proven incorrect by canon).

What I mean by creating canon is things like names filling a gap of information that may or may not be given in canon, like names, for example. There are a lot of characters that canonically have not been given names of one sort or another. Whoverse's the Doctor, the Master and Jack Harkness (all nicknames/aliases); Grimm's Monroe and Teen Wolf's Sheriff and Stiles Stilinski (none of whom have first names). And then there are character's parents' names, how many moms are mentioned but never named?

Or dates. We know both Tony DiNozzo (NCIS) and Stiles' moms died. We don't know when or how. And probably 90% of characters out there have no specifically mentioned age.

Or events. Was Jack Harkness ever really pregnant? What actually happened in Budapest (Avengers)? Were any of the Magnificent Seven other than Nathan involved in the Civil War (Magnificent Seven, TV)?

Should the producer/writers' intent matter? If someone said in an interview that Gaius was Merlin's uncle, should we take that as fact (Merlin)? What about things that have been accepted as fanon? Does Mycroft continually kidnap John (Sherlock)? Does Thor really like poptarts?

Anyone else have issues with this? Does any of it matter to you as a reader? Have you ever decided on something in your head (like a character's name) which makes it hard to read a fic that has come up with something else?

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Giles was Merlin's uncle I presume you mean Gaius?

Specifically for that tidbit, it made sense to me so I took it as canon, especially considering it was mentioned by more than one person in early interviews (Merlin, Gaius and Merlin's mum I think). Perhaps TPTB originally intended it to be canon but changed their minds as it was never mentioned in-series.

Spaceship crew members can be problematical. Voyager started off with a certain crew quota, some of whom died when they ended up in the Delta Quadrant and then added more over the years (Kes, Neelix, Seven etc). Fanfic writers pretty much went haywire adding random characters right, left and centre. Over the years, names were put to more and more people, initially just onscreen, but then later in the books leaving fewer and fewer unknown people to slot in just for the sake of it. I know when I was writing my early Voyager fic, I kept tabs on just who was added and would sometimes mention them in passing if I needed a random character.

I like the way fandom will sometimes anticipate canon (or maybe the writers are just reading fanfic) - in Torchwood, fic writers were calling Ianto's sister Rhiannon long before we were given that name as canon and a certain DI G Lestrade was being called Greg by many people long before Hounds of Baskerville confirmed his name.

For me, it's not that significant. I can quite cheerfully accept something as AU if the names don't match up but I've had practice as both a crossover reader and writer doing that as crossovers by their very nature aren't canonical. I realise that this isn't the case for everyone, maybe I'm just naturally good at handwaving...

If someone said in an interview that Giles was Merlin's uncle, should we take that as fact (Merlin)?

Not being familiar with the show and the situation there, I can only go on my own thoughts on extra material in general, but I would say yes.

I think this is because as a creator, there's a lot of stuff floating around my head which for one reason or another might not make it to an actual written story, but as far as I'm concerned it's still canon. That may give me a difference perspective of the issue, I'm not sure.

BUT... I really don't have any issue if someone was to fic my stuff (oh wistful thinking!) and put something aside, whether it's something that explicitly occurred "on screen" or just something I said, if that's what works with the fic author's story. Also for all I do know, I also have a lot of situations where I just plain have no idea what happened, maybe because I didn't do much with so and so's backstory and that bit's hazy or whathaveyou.

I suppose the short version would be: as a creator, I do think the creator's intent and ideas count, but feel free to go in and do what you like, because that's part of what fic's about.

Gaius, yes *headdesk*

Oh lordy, I never thought about that issue of Voyager. Do you accept the books as canon? I remember reading ST:TNG books way, way back (it was still airing) and finding they contradicted themselves in the canon they created so I decided to ignore them and only consider what aired canon. Intent does matter though sometimes(like Gaius originally being the uncle) so... I dunno.

Very true about Lestrade. It was funny because ACD authors pretty much settled on his name as Giles and BBC as Greg and everyone just happily went along with it.

Does your intent ever change though? Like originally you figured A would be B's nephew, but then as the stories progressed you realized that while there was a avuncular aspect to the relationship it'd work better if there wasn't the blood relationship?

Hmm.... for stuff I haven't written yet? All the time! For stuff I have written, not so much... I can't think of any specific examples. It sort of becomes set down for me then, so it's part of the story unless I decide to reboot the whole thing.

That's why I question accepting things authors et all take in interviews and the like- they say X but that's way back in S1 or after the first book and now there's all this new canon with possibly more canon yet to come so is X still the case?

(It's a little silly, I know, it's just one of those issues my brain has)

Yeah, I get you. I don't usually share what I'm going to do in the future, part because I don't want to reveal spoilers and part because it could change.

I suppose it's a bit like real life. There are all sorts of ways the future can go, but the past is set.

That said it's still relatively early days and I do add new stuff to the backstory if it makes sense. Case in point - when starting out, I though the main characters' mother was just an incidental character. Now she's the reason the plot's happening as it is at all. Sometimes I can still surprise myself.

Oh neat. Stories and their characters just take on lives of their own sometimes, don't they?

That's still nothing next to the ones who walk in and go I'M PART OF THIS STORY NOW, I'LL PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE IF YOU TRY TO GET ME OUT.

*giggles madly*

I'm speaking as a person who does fill in canon very regularly, and also someone who doesn't read a lot of other people's fanfic.

For me, I never worry much about things being Jossed, because, for me, the reason I write fanfic is to fill in those gaps. I like to write family stories, and that requires family and backstory for family. So I have to make the family or make the events of the family In the past. Tons of people wrote post-Great Game stories for Series One of Sherlock, and they were all Jossed. All the post-Reichenbach stuff will be Jossed. I think most people just put 'written before Series X' or 'AU' on and keep rolling. I wrote a section of fic about how Sherlock can't drive based on a conversation on the Great Game commentary, and then in Series Two he drove because Martin can't drive and Ben can. I then wrote a story about Sherlock learning to drive. No one commented on that paradox, and only one person commented on the original story being no longer canon with a sort of 'oh well' shrug of their shoulders. So I don't think it's a big deal for people.

After all, it's Jossed in every episode that John and Sherlock are a couple, but 99% of the fanfiction out there insists upon it.

And, as a reader, I'm not thrown off by reading other people's interpretations of things because I assume they put the same amount of effort and reasoning into creating their worlds as I do mine, and they've just come up with a different conclusion.

A lot of times I don't think even writers known where they're going with canon. It might be that Merlin was Gaius's nephew and then the actors got cast and it didn't work anymore. I think it would have been mentioned on screen if it were canon, but I wouldn't side-eye you if you wrote about it. I'll read any well-reasoned thing, and if don't agree with it, I sometimes get inspiration for my own interpretations.

There will always be some people upset with something, because that's the nature of fandom. Hopefully they won't be jerks about it, but you shouldn't let it stop you from writing something you want to write.

Oh, but giving the Doctor a name would make me side-eye you, just for the record. I don't want to know his name. No name can possible live up to what they'd built up to on the show.

She was very insist on that.

I suppose, going back to the original question, I will only specify extra details as canon if I know for definite they're true. Otherwise, I'll state "I'm not sure, but I think blah blah blah." That might be why I take most stated things as canon, because I guess I automatically assume the creator is likewise sure, but different people have different ideas of what sure is, I guess.

It's interesting seeing this from the other side, so to speak?

Tons of people wrote post-Great Game stories for Series One of Sherlock, and they were all Jossed. All the post-Reichenbach stuff will be Jossed

That's a good point. I mean EVERY post Great Game fic had the bomb go off, no one *ever* thought that might not be the case.

And also it's a good point you can always label a fic (or add the tag later) written before 'X'.

And I so agree about the Doctor's name. :)

Oh absolutely!!! :)

I never noticed the Giles thing, as I tend not to read ACD based stuff, not being familiar with the original work.

I have a weird thing in my own canon - my OC Siannon O'Niall first showed up in the Star Trek: Voyager verse, which is 400 years or so from present day, and there are certain things about her in that era that I'm not particularly happy with now. The plot points are fine, what I intended to happen back then still works (oh, the unfinished wips that languish on my hd) but I think it was the *way* I wrote her and the fics that I'm unhappy with (but not enough to disown them) as I think I've become a better writer. She has a lot more back story now than she did 15 years ago but none of it contradicts the later canon; just because the Whoniverse aspect wasn't mentioned in the earlier written but chronologically later fics doesn't mean it wasn't there - she just didn't mention it. There are things mentioned in the Trek fics as being in the past that won't be dealt with in present day, just because I don't think I can get the ideas to work any more. I'm not the same person as I was in the late 90s and what made sense back then, doesn't any more, some of the time at least.

I can totally see being a different writer now than you were all those years ago! Wow, that's quite the history to have with an OC, I'm impressed!

Interesting discussion!

I was going to say yes, I do tend to stay pretty well within the boundaries of show-canon in my fics because that's just where my head dwells. (Except for crack or obvious AU.) The things I write don't make big original revelations and they happen among the existing episodes, or they have no particular timing. Time can get SO complicated, I end up spending all my time researching, get obsessed with details, and never finish the fic. I just like exploring new situations, or spending more time with a character.

I was going to say all that... then I realized I have written some very definitive timeline stuff for Alice Guppy and Emily in Torchwood, including Emily's death, for which we had a date but nothing else. I also played with Myfanwy's origins and gave her a continuing story after Children of Earth. But I don't think I did any of that except when I felt sure we weren't going to get any such thing from the show itself. It's not that I'm afraid of being Jossed, I'm just not so interested in speculating if I believe I may eventually be satisfied by the show itself. I tend to develop attachments to very minor characters (any animal character, for instance, and also Weevils!) and I like exploring things from their point of view. I'm accustomed to assuming the creators are far less interested in those things than I am.

I end up spending all my time researching, get obsessed with details, and never finish the fic

Oh, I am so, so, SO glad this is not just me!!!

I can really understand with the idea of waiting for the show to solve/explain something rather than coming up with something yourself too. :)

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Creating Canon

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