Ducky Says... Fanon vs Canon

[donutsweeper]

Looking at NCIS fanfic will give you a specific feel to how Ducky speaks. "Anthony" this and "Abigail" that. Reading that a person would assume that this is accurate to how Ducky talks in canon.

But you would be wrong.

Flipping channels the other day I caught the beginning of "Twisted Sister." When approaching the team Ducky apologizes for not being there earlier due to problems parking the van and then says "I would have thought McGee would have beaten me up here." McGee. Not Timothy.

That made me curious. I hunted down transcripts and started researching what Ducky called the various team members, as well as the guest stars. The incident in "Twisted Sister" had to be the anomaly, right?

Actually, according to all the transcripts I could find (S1-4, for a total of 84 episodes. Statistics from Brothers in Arms, In the Dark, Trojan Horse, Angel of Death and Model Behavior are from watching the episodes, not transcripts) the answer is, for the most part, no.

He mentions names in the following manner:

Jethro: 145 vs Gibbs: 52 (also Leroy Jethro Gibbs: 3, Special Agent Gibbs:3, and Agent Gibbs: 7, 'Director':1)
Mister Palmer: 122 vs Jimmy: 7
Abby: 85 vs Abigail: 8 vs Miss Sciuto: 1
Tony: 41 vs DiNozzo: 3 vs Anthony:1 vs Anthony DiNozzo: 1
Gerald: 32
Kate: 17 vs Caitlin: 12
Timothy: 18 vs McGee: 9
Ziva: 14 vs Officer David: 3
Director: 3 vs the Director: 4
Christopher: 2 vs Chris:1 vs Christopher Pacci:1
Agent Lee: 3

Dennis:1, Elmo: 2, Agent Fuller: 1, Agent Burley: 1, Digger: 4, Charlie:1
Cassie: 2, Janice: 3, Sandy: 1, Yost: 2, Mister Yost: 1, Ari: 4, Tobias: 1, Shannon & Kelly: 1, Rick: 2, Agent Cassidy: 2, Sharif:2. Sheriff: 1, Monsieur Grenouille: 1 (while undercover), Renee: 1, Jackson Scott: 1

Other than Kate and Pacci the victims are always referred to by their rank or a combination of their rank and last name.

It's interesting that Gerald is always Gerald, yet Jimmy is nearly always Mister Palmer. And remembering that Jimmy is in a lot fewer episodes than the other characters his name is used by Ducky a significant number of times.

Occasionally full names were used in jest. Gibbs calling him Doctor (and stressing the word) resulted in one of the uses of Special Agent Gibbs. Abby, after his first use of Abigail asks him not to call her that and the next time he does she replies, "Donald."

I'll admit that early seasons are not always indicative of later ones, but I found the breakdown of his usage of people's names interesting and thought other people might as well. (If there is interest I can post the breakdown by episode and season as well)

edited to add- I was curious, so I went through the subtitles for uses of "Anthony" even though it's difficult to ascertain who said what. "Anthony" is not used in the S3 and S4 episodes missing transcripts. For S5 and S6, other than what seems to be Tony introducing himself, it appears that Ducky calls him Anthony 6 times: once in "Stakeout," twice in "Cloak" and "Bounce" and once in "Semper Fidelis." (No "young Anthony" uses however.)

Comments

[kaylashay.livejournal.com]

How very enlightening...

I would have thought there were more Anthony's in there.... I know he does refer to him as Tony, but I would have thought there more full name uses there.... huh...

Jethro was right on with I figured. And while I like his saying Abigail, I know it wasn't used as muched.

It is interesting that Kate was near half/half on her name.

Now you make me want to right a fic about why Ducky calls Tony Tony more than Anthony...

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

*hee* inspiring plotbunnies FTW!

Interestingly, the first Anthony wasn't until S4

And actually in S1 the Gibbs uses outnumbered the Jethro uses.

[tejas.livejournal.com]

Ooh, are you going to take on the mantel of Canon vs. Fanon queen for NCIS?

Please?

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Lol. It depends how bored I get.

[haldane.livejournal.com]

It's not about NCIS, but this reminded me of one particular fanon issue where I hold a different opinion to everyone I've ever spoken to.

In Torchwood, the consensus is that Ianto and Gwen speak Welsh, but Jack doesn't, except maybe an endearment or two. Now, Jack has lived in Cardiff for 150 years, give or take a decade. What are the odds that he's not picked up the local language in that time?

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

That's one of those fanon things that always make me shake my head. It makes no sense.

[fredsmith518.livejournal.com]

I don't think Gwen speaks Welsh fluently, Ianto, I thought yes, until the last season, but Rhys, maybe yes.
Saw the actor, up here in the North, where he is from, and he is Welsh speaking, so maybe I'm coloured by that.
have had this discussion with a friend who thought Gwen's family, her mamgu, nain, grandmother might have spoken the language.
So many people born and bred in Wales, like me, sadly are not fluent, my younger daughter is though, to my joy.
I think the situation is improving, though, as the language is still gaining strength in schools.

Erm, sorry, soapbox...

[delsilencio.livejournal.com]

O.O
My first impression was: WOW! Such effort and dedication, you had to compile all this information! Well done!

And as kaylashay81 said above, I'd think Tony'd be called Anthony a lot more than one time! I could have swore it was several times, mind you not a lot .. but not one! Interesting! Even more, because I thought that he called Kate 'Caitlin' fewer times that he called Tony 'Anthony'. O.O

Calling Abby 'Abigail', I remember.. Mostly because she did a big deal about it when it happened.

Do you count Ducky talking/addressing the actual person or talking about him/her? Because I remember (in Jeopardy) Ducky saying (to Gibbs) 'Officer David is off the hook yet'. She had left autopsy or wasn't there.

WOW!O.O

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I counted any time Ducky said any name other than the deceased (except for when the victim was Chris and Kate).

Remember though, this is only S1-S4 though, there aren't transcripts past that.

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

Does Ducky really say my dear that often?

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I didn't look specifically for that, but I don't recollect seeing it so I'd have to say he didn't say it very much, if at all.

[awanderingbard.livejournal.com]

That is interesting. It's weird how fanon takes on a life of it's own. People grab onto a concept and run with it.

My impression of Ducky is that he uses full names when he's being sort of knowledgeable/fatherly/scolding and regular names the rest of the time.

I think Mister Palmer probably comes from that fact that Palmer is learning, still, whereas I think Gerald was more of an assistant. Mister Palmer is a teacher to a student, Gerlad is a colleague to a colleague. *babbles*

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I always thought Ducky barely tolerated Gerald (the man wore earplugs to avoid Ducky's stories) but maybe you're right. Palmer is also much more deferential to Ducky, always calling him "Doctor Mallard" or simply "Doctor."

[onlyariana.livejournal.com]

I would say though that he seems to use last name only less than many of the others. First names are more intimate and personal and he has an almost loving relationship with practically everyone.

awanderingbard hit it on the head, imo about calling Jimmy "Mister Palmer". Can't you see the old style teacher calling all the students Mister or Miss. Like in Dead Poet's.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Not surprising then that he never calls Abby "Miss Sciuto" although practically NO ONE calls Abby by her last name

[karababe-64.livejournal.com]

This doesn't really surprise me, I always get a little annoyed with fics that have Ducky only saying the longer versions. The only that annoys me the most is when they have him saying 'Mr. DiNozzo'.

I am a little surprised that there weren't more Anthonys, and that it wasn't until season 4. I could have sworn that he had done it early on.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

My personal hate is "young Anthony" which seems to occur in a third of the fics for some reason.

I was really surprised to find so few Anthony uses. I wish there were transcripts of later episodes to see if he used it more often later in the series.

[demoka.livejournal.com]

Hey wow, he used Abigail and Anthony a lot less than I thought he had!

And great going doing this analysis! It was quite interesting to read!

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I was *really* surprised by how few times he said Abigail. I know I'm guilty of having him say it in fic!

[haltlos.livejournal.com]

Wow, you counted? You totally rock!
I thought he called Tony Anthony more often... And I loved the 'Abigail' - 'Donald' moment. haha

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I was really surprised by the Tony's vs Anthony's. It really goes against fanon!

[mama-terra.livejournal.com]

WOW! Fanfiction has really altered my perception. I would've thought he always used Abigal and Anthony. And I watch NCIS religously. I need to cut back on the fanfic I guess. :D


You mind if I link this in the memories of navy_ncis?

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Maybe in later seasons he uses them more frequently?

Sure, with luck people will find it useful.

[mama-terra.livejournal.com]

Do you have any other fanon vs. canon posts for NCIS? I would love to link them if you do. I've created a memory tag for them. :D

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I have a list of Gibbs' rules with the episode they appear in.

http://donutsweeper.livejournal.com/179524.html

[adriannacoylho.livejournal.com]

That's awesome! Go you!

I have also noticed that, as I tend to read transcripts or scenes between particular characters before I write, to get a more 'realistic' dialogue, but... I'll freely admit I do character parody in my fic all too often.

Ducky's use of language is much more colloquial than fanfic normally has it. Sometimes his dialogue is more colloquial than the rest of the team, which I think is natural, he is a chatty bloke after all.

The thing with fanon v canon is that as a fanfic writer it is all too tempting to throw in the 'known' to make sure people think you've characterised them well (make that 'right') instead of taking the initative and running with what has already been done. Most of the well remembered facts about a character are from single occurences/mentions in canon anyway, they just happened to stick in people's minds.

When I was writing last year, I did try to steer myself away from doing that, but more often than not (mostly for time's sake) I would slip back into the easy stereotype in my head. I've even had a beta say to me 'why don't you add XXX in here? we all know he has XXX attribute' - which is why I avoided it in the first place!! Sadly I have given in to that on a recent piece, for a quiet life. But - to an extent - that seems to show that that's what people in fandom want to read, parodies, because it's familiar and we all nod our heads and go 'yes, that's him'. Having said that, I feel like Abby has become a parody of herself in canon, so we're not the only writers struggling with it!

You know, I'm actually tempted to go through my own fanfic and compare stats! (stats=love) I'll let you know if I do.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Abby's been very scattershot in canon lately, that's true. Which is frustrating for the fanfic writer. And, in general, it's far too easy to fall back on the 'quirks' that supposedly make a character when writing. Ziva's mistaken English, Tony's movie references, Abby's caffpow, Ducky's formal way of addressing people... It's just too easy.

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking he calls Jimmy Mister Palmer as a way of distancing himself. You know, along the lines of if Ducky's not too close then it won't hurt so much if something happens to him? If it's not that then it's... to bestow upon Jimmy an air of authority? Jimmy is very young after all - and quite naive... It's easy to see that he could have come in for a lot of ribbing from the rest of the team but he never does - not to the point of it becoming an issue anyway. I'm not sure if that makes any sense??

And I think that odd case of Anthony - is when Tony is in charge so it's maybe that Ducky thought 'Anthony' was more respectful, which is an assumption in line with his use of rank or rank + name... elsewhere.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

And I think that odd case of Anthony - is when Tony is in charge

That would fit with Ducky using Anthony twice in S6's "Bounce"- when Tony was in charge of the team (and he also does in S4 E1, when Tony is also in charge). Good theory.

Using "Mister Palmer" really works for the characters and their relationship. Jimmy always calls Ducky "Doctor Mallard" or just "Doctor" there is definitely a tiered relationship there. Oddly, from what I remember seeing, Jimmy is usually called Jimmy by Abby, but Palmer by everyone else. (And despite what fanfic suggests I only found one "Autopsy Gremlin" although I wasn't specifically looking for that)

[tutncleo.livejournal.com]

That was so interesting! It is amazing how our perceptions aren't necessarily based on reality. As someone fairly new to writing, I know how easy it is to pander to the perceptions of canon. You get scared of doing something that can be perceived as a deviation, and it becomes easy to write what you think the reader expects.

Thanks for investigating that, and then sharing it with us. Will have to think on it....

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

It's far too easy to, after reading something over and over, assume that it's based on canon. *nods*

[fredsmith518.livejournal.com]

Most interesting, thank you -was sidetracked above, but was actually reading for the ncis analysis

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I've found that sometimes the discussions a post results in as interesting as the post itself, but glad you found both interesting.

[tuawahine.livejournal.com]

That's a very interesting post. Though I'm wondering now, does it make a difference if he is talking to someone as opposed to about them? I'll have to look out for that next time I watch the DVDs. (Now I'm wondering how often Gibbs calls Tony 'Tony' vs 'DiNozzo'.)

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I didn't keep stats of that, but my recollection is that overall it didn't. When introducing someone to a member of his team once or twice he used a full name (that's where a few of the "Special Agent Gibbs" came from) but when talking to Gibbs about Tony, he would say Tony. And a lot of the uses of Abby, for example, were asking Palmer to bring something to her.

[alphorion.livejournal.com]

Thanks for compiling!

Not specifically Ducky, but on names: my impression is unlike McGee and Tony, Ziva is almost always Ziva, except maybe a few times Gibbs might say "David" (as in prior to saying, "shoot and sketch" or something). That is, people only refer to her as David when referring to her as "Officer David." I suppose because as a unique name.

OTOH, now I think about it, could it be because she's female? I don't recall Kate being called "Todd," either, unless "Agent Todd" (except again, on the scene "shoot and sketch" orders -- but I hear Gibbs saying "Kate" in my head in such a scenario more than I hear "Todd.").

[My theory kinda breaks down when I think of Agent Lee, who almost always was called "Lee" AFAIK. Maybe it's more a consequence of being low on the totem pole (like McGee -- my impression is that he's more often called by surname... but I have no stats to prove it).]

I did come across a site where the author is listing the canon points for a Gibbs/Tony relationship. There's a stat list of Gibbs saying "Tony" vs. "DiNozzo" per episode (plus other cool trivia).

Gibbs and Tony - the reasons
http://spae.dreamwidth.org/9547.html

Individual trivia pages on Gibbs and Tony:
http://spae.dreamwidth.org/4864.html
http://spae.dreamwidth.org/5151.html

and other trivia under the "in-depth" tag.

Myself, I wonder about the other teams sometimes (Gibbs' can't be the only team in the whole Yard, surely?). Except for the few episodes on Pacci, we never see other agents doing... well, anything (in the bullpen, I mean). I see them sometimes, and techs up in MTAC and maybe those geeks in the basement, but I don't get that they're other (similar) teams. I mean, Pacci seemed like he was on his own. They don't run around when they get a lead? They don't get annoyed at Gibbs' teams antics? No other team leaders doing brainstorming? (Heck, do they even have a plasma?) And wow, Abby's exclusively Gibbs' tech (do we ever see her working on evidence on cases from other teams? I mean, Ducky does refer occasionally to other guests in Autopsy, at least).

Makes me want to watch again to catch more trivia about everybody! :D

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

You're right, Ziva, Kate and Abby are almost never referred to by their last name by anyone, other than a few Agent or Officer Whatnots. I don't know what that's supposed to imply. Interestingly Pacci is ONLY referred to by his last name. Is it a guy vs girl thing?

We've seen other agents in the bullpen and occasionally elsewhere, but the show does tend to focus on "our" team. I guess we can't fault them for that since they only have so much money for guest stars, etc.

I love stats, they're hard to keep track of sometimes and can result in annoying cases of the show not keeping canon straight (like with Gibbs' rules and how there are more than one of a few)