TW 2x12 and the canon it creates and conflicts with....

[donutsweeper]

I *liked* this episode.

But it gave me many head-scratching issues with canon.  Owen's age, for one and his years working in the field and whatnot are all wonky given he supposedly died at age 27.  But, not surprisingly, I'm going to look at the issues brought up with Jack (a lot of this I mentioned in torchwood_meta, which is an incredible comm and everyone should participate in the discussion there) but anyway:

We know Jack was killed on Ellis Island in 1892. According to Utopia "...shot through the heart, and then I woke up. Thought that was kind of strange." So we can assume that's his first death he's aware of. Therefore the first part of the flashback presented in this episode must occur after Ellis Island. It takes about three weeks to sail across the Atlantic in those days (judging from the ship manifests from 1892 which list departures and arrivals). But suddenly, he's in Cardiff, waiting by the rift for the Doctor? And had been living there (and dying there) for at least 6 months and it is still the 1890's  (we know that because Tarot Card Girl said he'd have to wait through the change of two centuries). When did he return to Wales? And why? Why would he have left in the first place? And do you really believe that Jack would be so careless to spill so many secrets around in bars that Torchwood could have overheard? The man's been a Time Agent and conman. He'd know how to keep things closer to the vest than that. And there is also the little matter of his instant believing of what Tarot Card Girl told him, wouldn't he have found the timing of her proclamation a little suspicious?

It also appears he's stayed working for TW3 the whole time since his "recruitment", but he wasn't in the WWI picture of the TW3 team that took Tommy. We've been told he fought (and died) in WWI and WWII- would the Torchwood Institute we've seen in this episode really have allowed him to leave to fight? Especially since they didn't seem to trust him- even the typed and early computer notes about him seem to imply he was barely trusted and continually spied upon.

He tells Ianto he's from the 51st century: just comes straight out and blithers on about 51st century hormones. There is also apparently a massive file (if not entire drawer of files) about him somewhere. Yet no one in "Day One" has a clue about his background.

And... apparently he's been using the name Captain Jack Harkness this whole time? That would have made the real Jack's WWII experiences a little complicated. And why would have the information about Jack's 1941 London blitz disappearance still be in the records for Gwen to find in "Everything Changes?"

We can also look at Jack's healing ability.  He comes back from the dead while still impaled by the bottle (however unlike his reanimation after being shot by Susie and Owen he does not reabsorb the blood from the bottle injury).  He does not heal instantly from Owen's punch, but does from the Weevil bite.  Inconsistencies within the same episode.  *sigh*

I'm not sure where I'm going with any of these comments, and I might add more to it later, but it's just some random canon issues I'm trying to wrap my mind around.

Comments

[smithy161.livejournal.com]

I kind of got the feeling that until he was put in charge in 1999, Jack came and went according to his own/his bosses' whims.

As for going to Wales, I can't quite see what you're getting at. It's seven years between 1892 and 1899, plenty of time for Jack to get used to his circumstances, and move to Wales. You ask why would he, which makes me wonder if I'm missing something. I'm not certain he ever left Cardiff before 1892; do we know where in the world he arrived when he left the Gamestation?

Ugh, timelines hurt my brain. But you're right about Jack's healing ability, totally contradictory. We'd have to assume his body is unpredictable for it to make any sense.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

he doesn't say where he landed in 1869. What I meant was- if he was staying in Cardiff to wait for the Doctor (as he's overheard saying by Torchwood) then why leave to go to NY? It's a massive trip to have taken on a whim.

[smithy161.livejournal.com]

Another mystery! Unless he had to earn his passage from America to Wales (or from somewhere else to America, and from there to Wales). The chances of him space-hoppering back to the exact place he wants to be have got to be pretty slim.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

it's just weird that he'd have gone to Ellis Island (nearly all ships came their from Europe- and the majority from England) and then turned around to go to Wales (well, he would have probably had to travel to England by ship and then made it to Wales from there) especially since it was rare to travel west (to Europe) from the US at that time.... and that he'd have managed to get to Cardiff by 1899 for Tarot Card Girl's declaration of two centuries passing

[smithy161.livejournal.com]

I don't think it has to be a problem; Jack could have all kinds of reasons, and we know nothing about what he was up to in those days.

I also still don't understand why he couldn't get from Ellis Island to Cardiff in the space of seven years.

Maybe I'm just not good at this timeline stuff.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

he certainly *could* it's just... it makes it all smushed and unnecessarily muddled.

They made it seem like he was determined to wait at the rift for the Doctor, come hell or high water, he'd be there because the Doctor would be refueling and then Jack could find him and get him to make things right.

Which is an odd attitude change considering he went all the way to America just a short time prior- far from Cardiff and the ability to find the Doctor there.

[smithy161.livejournal.com]

He was sitting in Cardiff waiting for the Doctor to come and 'fix' his immortality. He didn't realise he was immortal until, at least, Ellis island. Before that, he may not have wanted to see the Doctor again - too angry or hurt, perhaps, or just didn't see the point in wasting his (presumed mortal) life hunting for someone who had apparently forgotten him.

[xwingace]

(here via the newsletter)

I can see Jack fruitlessly travelling all over the world for ~thirty years, trying to find the Doctor, and then, sort of giving up, pinning his hopes on Cardiff as at least being a place where he *knows* the Doctor shows up occasionally.

I got the impression that, as long as he kept doing work for Torchwood on occasion, he was pretty much allowed to come and go as he pleased -- he was never an official employee, always 'uncontracted', a mercenary. This all sort of fits with the idea that I've had of Jack serving with Torchwood; working for them but still his own man.

I also presume that although he's known to Torchwood as Captain Jack Harkness, that doesn't mean that that's always been the identity/name that's on his papers, especially not during the era that the original was still around. As for the files that TW3 might have of him... well, he's had time to himself to hide those really well or destroy them.

XWA

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

You're right that he's probably not an 'official' person- I got the sense there were no official "legal" identity papers anywhere- but it just made the fact his 1941 disappearance (from "Doctor Dances") still existed seem odd.

As for his return to Cardiff after wandering about a bit- that didn't bother me- it was the forcing it into a small window of time (given we already had the 1892 date set) that made things awkward for me

[the-dark-side.livejournal.com]

I'm not even going to try and untangle the timeline. I do think, though, that, given Jack's state of mind after being abandoned by the Doctor, he might have let his guard down for some time and unintentionally blabbed while under the influence. It's my theory that this is why he doesn't drink a whole lot, anymore.

What I got from the whole "working for Torchwood" flashback is that he worked freelance for quite some time before finally joining the institute. I imagine, knowing he really didn't want to leave the rift for long, they'd let him go off to war, knowing he'd come back.

I'm also going to assume that our Captain Jack didn't actually exist outside Torchwood. I would imagine they'd be invested in keeping people from finding out about him, so any necessary military records would probably be handled by them. Why the rest of TW3 couldn't find anything about him, though, I'll never know. I actually think Ianto probably knew everything, or almost everything, he just wasn't telling anyone.

As to his healing ability, I just think the writers can't agree on that one.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

As to his healing ability, I just think the writers can't agree on that one.

Amen. However the fact it can't be portrayed in the same way in a single episode annoys me slightly.

[the-dark-side.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's just a bit annoying. If you can't agree, at least let one person write all the death scenes for the episode so there's some consistency.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

You'd think that someone could keep an eye on that sort of thing for accuracies sake

[the-dark-side.livejournal.com]

I'm sure they have a person for that. Obviously, this person needs to be fired.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

seriously- Conflicting crap in the same episode! *headdesk*

Otherwise, if it's just a canon thing they can't remember- ask the fans- post a question on one of the commms and they'd have 30 answers in 5 seconds.

[the-dark-side.livejournal.com]

Someone was taking a nap during the editing.

LOL...I'd like to see that.

[snorkackcatcher]

Sounds reasonable. Also, there's no reason that anyone in the 1940s should connect the American pilot Captain Jack Harkness with another man of a similar name recruited by a secretive British organisation in the 1890s, and probably not using that name on missions? Even if they met the pre-Doctor version of Jack, they'd assume he was doing what he was in fact doing, using the ID as cover.

[the-dark-side.livejournal.com]

probably not using that name on missions

Oh, wow. I just got this image of Jack with this stack of fake IDs like Sam and Dean from Supernatural. *facepalm* This is what I get for watching too much TV.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

as a conman, I wouldn't be surprised if he did something like that, although with access to psychic paper he'd be able to adjust the IDs at a moment's thought

[the-dark-side.livejournal.com]

This is true.

I can only imagine what Sam and Dean would do with psychic paper...

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

oh lord- those boys would get into even MORE trouble with it

[awanderingbard.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen this episode yet (I had every intention of getting caught up over March Break and watched a sum total of one episode), so I don't know exactly what was said or done on it.

It seems some of your puzzlement could be explained by noting that Jack has lived twice through the same period of time. In his conman days, he went to WWII to fight and met the Doctor there, then after dying, he went back to whenever on Earth and lived through it again there (I'm guessing from your notes). So, it is possible First!Jack was fighting in WWII and Second!Jack was working for Torchwood at the same time. It doesn't make sense that he would use the same name, I agree, but maybe the writers were trying to simplify things?

I am aware I could be completely off in all this and maybe you're referring to something entirely different. Maybe Jack was shown fighting in WWII in this episode and I'm totally off. But...um...I like to talk about stuff. :D

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

you are right, but my assumption was that official-like people would be keeping an eye out for the name, it just seems weird that breadcrumb would be left for Gwen to find 50 years later when Jack's obviously been flying under the radar for 100 years or more

Jack

[nedeah.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to throw out an idea. What if when Jack got to earth in 1869 he wasn't sitting on the rift, what if he was living his life. I think the wedding photo from Something Borrowed could be explained in this way.

What if Jack got married prior to 1892 or abouts, and moved with his wife to American. He gets shot on Ellis Island, dies in front of his wife and comes to later, or she is shot with him, but the other way is more poetic. Anyway, he loses someone he loves and finds out he's a freak all at the same time. Then he goes back to Britain and goes to Cardiff determined to find the Doctor to fix him. I think this would explain his actions in the bars of Cardiff, this would account for the bitter.

Just a thought.

Re: Jack

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

someone else mentioned something similar and think you both might be onto something there- he didn't begin to haunt the rift until after he realized his immortality. It hadn't occurred to me about the wedding photo, but if he lost her somehow sue to his immortality that would make the bitterness that much more pronounced- that he needed to wait for, to find the Doctor, because the Time Lord had a lot of explaining to do and things to make up for