What do you consider canon?

[donutsweeper]

This poll is brought to you by the fact that the international version of the White Collar pilot contained scenes not in the American one...

[Poll #1614567]

Comments

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

But....it's an American show? I thought? *baffled* What got deleted?

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

It is an American show. All I know about the deleted scenes are what's been posted here (http://katikat.livejournal.com/1180433.html) (the poster put a link to it up at whitecollar_tv)

I don't know if the scenes were cut for time, due to American censors or if Jess Easton did it for some reasoning of his own.

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

I've said 'what's aired and that's it'.

But I guess if the deleted scenes were aired somewhere, as opposed to just appearing in extras or on a blooper tape or whatever, then that would constitute canon after all.

So I'm now saying B but *only* if scenes are actually aired, even if you personally don't see them aired, and not just shown as extras on a DVD or something. I won't change my vote as I know that deleted can mean 'not shown on TV but only appear on DVD as extras' and to me that's not strictly canon - just as commentaries, etc. aren't canon, to my mind.

*Waves to you*

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

*waves back*

I'm torn about different versions airing in different places. I wonder WHY the scenes didn't air originally- it's possible the director took them out because they no longer jived with his/her vision of the show or something like that.

[stackcats.livejournal.com]

F, but C can be a little dodgy.

I really need to get properly into White Collar, for it is awesome.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Commentary sort of stuff certainly can be useful to varying degrees- I think it's the only place we learned Myfanwy's name (I can't quite remember) but can also be inconsistent.

White Collar is AWESOME. And it's one of the few shows with strong women on now. Diana who's in the pilot and then S1 finale and S2 is GORGEOUS and amazing and fierce! And the show just rocks on so many other levels.

[awanderingbard.livejournal.com]

The same thing happened with Nero Wolfe when it was shown elsewhere. Different countries have different rules for how much time is spent in commercials, so if the country has less commercial time, sometimes the show will provided extra stuff to fill in the difference. Nero Wolfe sometimes had a opening or joining scene with the guys playing poker and something along the lines of 'remember that case where...'

For me, canon is what the creators say is canon. I don't put much stock in deleted scenes, since they were deleted for a reason. They were able to be cut because they weren't important enough to need to keep. They may be fun little facts to throw in, but they aren't strictly canon.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I didn't know that about Nero Wolfe! And I've seen the dvds too and don't remember seeing scenes that hadn't aired here. huh.

I don't put much stock in deleted scenes, since they were deleted for a reason. They were able to be cut because they weren't important enough to need to keep. They may be fun little facts to throw in, but they aren't strictly canon.

I like this way of looking at them, I agree with it.

[rustydog.livejournal.com]

Interesting!

If forced at gunpoint to choose from among A-E, I would choose A. But I would say not just what's "originally" aired but the full extent of anything that is made and edited by the production team and aired, on television, somewhere. Sometimes they have to make heartbreaking edits for time or commercial interests, but when they get a bit more freedom, they'll do it closer to how they originally intended.

That said, "canon" is kind of a spectrum for me. In descending order of "unarguably canon" it's something like this for me:

1. What's aired on television
2. Writer & director commentary | Deleted scenes
3. Spinoff media created and written by the creative team of the TV show, especially while the show is still in production
4. Actor commentary
5. Official website materials (unless they contradict facts from the aired show & it's clear that the people putting together the website are not even running it by a continuity editor...)
6. Spinoff media written by others, but officially licensed

So basically, 2-6 I think are things that you can take into consideration, more or less strongly, in how you *interpret* canon, and then if you're writing fic... just use what's convenient, and explain in the notes where it came from so people can decide for themselves how close to canon they make it.

With Torchwood, there's *so* much history that wasn't explored on the aired show, if I want to delve into that history in a fic, I have a choice of making it all up myself, or researching what the website created and maybe what's in the official guide book thingy that was published. If I go with the latter, I'll feel like I'm at least closer to canon. But somebody else could argue that I'm not.

Oh! And of course, 'In Doctor Who, there's no such thing as canon.'

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I like your spectrum idea. And it makes a lot of sense that if you're in need of facts you may as well look to semi-canon for them!

[emeraldsedai.livejournal.com]

My answer (All of the Above) comes from my experience in Firefly fandom. What actually aired was three episodes short of what was filmed and finished. What was filmed and finished was an episode short of what was written (my icon is a line from the unfilmed episode script--a super insider Firefly reference); hints of stories that never got a chance to be told were made in commentary and even at cons. If you wanted to know what the Mandarin lines meant, you had to use the web, and things like a map of the Firefly 'verse were only available online. Then there were comics and a movie.

All in all, the line between Firefly canon and Firefly fanon is very blurry.

I think with the way episodic television is changing, F is a valid answer--whether it's just as valid for WC as for Firefly, I'm not sure, but it's a really interesting area of fannish speculation and I enjoyed thinking about it.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, there are several shows where the final episodes only could be seen via DVDs or whatever because they never aired anywhere.

What's your opinion on what makes up Supernatural's canon? There were officially licensed comic books that went directly against show canon (one famously had John buying the Impala post-fire when the car is shown in the pilot with the family sitting on it watching the house burn)

I've also noticed that the longer ago a show ended, the more blurred the line between canon and fanon becomes.

[bluetooth16.livejournal.com]

This is the first time I'm hearing about an alternate White Collar pilot!

*runs to investigate*

I wrote all of the above in the survey because not every show/movie has the same ways of dispensing canon in addition to the show/movie itself.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I've heard it mentioned here and there but someone put caps and little explanations of the added scenes here (http://katikat.livejournal.com/1180433.html)

[hllangel]

Ok, now I"m mad. Because I love the pilot so fucking much. And I agree with pretty much everyone that deleted scenes were cut for a reason.

SO WHY AREN'T THESE ANYWHERE ON ANY US VERSION OF THE DVDS/ITUNES/ETC.

WTF, Jeff?

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Exactly! Why aren't they on the DVD somewhere at least?

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Basically this is a reaction to what happened in TW fandom as a result of the Captain's Blog drivel being adopted in certain circles as canon.

So unless it actually appears on the screen...not so much.

And a chance to use my canon-schmanon icon.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

OMG that blog was... blergh

*hee* Love the canon/schmanon!!

[haldane.livejournal.com]

The only additions to the 'originally aired' material that I would consider canon are additional material *if* included in a re-released director's cut of the entire film (doesn't usually happen with TV shows due to fixed lengths, but them too). This excludes deleted scenes from blooper reels or on youtube.

If you need privileged access (eg websites, or spending extra money for books) then it's not canon.

/personal opinion only of course.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

A lot of people seem to think that way, myself included pretty much

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

What! You mean I saw stuff you didn't?? Was totaly unaware.

(Sidenote: I don't feel qualified to answer the poll, not sure why. Maybe I need to go and watch all of S1 again)


ETA: I went back up the thread and saw where you'd linked to the deleted scenes. You guys missed some good stuff *feels sad for you*

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I meant the poll to be fandoms in general, Doctor Who, NCIS, White Collar, whatever.

So the longer version is the one that aired in England? Interesting, I'm surprised the scenes haven't shown up on youtube or whathaveyou then.

[gwynevere1.livejournal.com]

I voted for "B," but the more accurate answer for me would be "What originally aired and any deleted scenes that aren't contradicted by what originally aired."

For example, there's a deleted scene for the first Pirates of the Caribbean film that contradicts how Jack got his cursed gold coin in the original theater release. So, I wouldn't count *that* as canon, but I would count any other deleted scenes.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

There is that problem when it comes to deleted scenes. Sometimes it's obvious the scenes were cut because something was rewritten/changed later on and they no longer flow. Other times the deleted scene is added into a later episode or the director/writer bemoans on the commentary about not being able to include it.

You "B" but.. idea makes a lot of sense.

[the-dark-side.livejournal.com]

Ok, how is there not a copy of this international White Collar pilot ANYWHERE on the internet?!

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I DO NOT KNOW!!! At first, I'd only heard of the pilot being shown in countries where it had been dubbed into other languages, but apparently it showed in England too?

I've looked EVERYWHERE and haven't seen neither hide nor hair of it. *Sigh*